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A few counterpoints:

Treating markup and styles separately is great, in principle, but you'll always need additional markup for certain things. We knew this going back to the early 2000s.

There is nothing about Tailwind itself that forces you to use divs and spans instead of the appropriate HTML tag.

Documents and interfaces are different. Tailwind makes a lot more sense for interfaces. You can use Tailwind for the interface and scoped HTML selectors for other content.

Tailwind is around 4x faster and has practically no overhead compared to writing a complex CSS codebase. Whatever you think of it, this is always a benefit in its corner.


Folks in this thread keep conflating “forces to” and “ergonomically encourages”.

If a power tool is poorly designed it may not force me to hurt myself but if it makes it easier that’s a problem.


TBF, Tailwind is more about optimizing CSS sizes via the utility classes approach IIRC.

I always feel like the distinction between interference and document is missing in these types of discussions. Often times they're as different as native vs web dev and if you don't realize that then you're arguing about totally different things and nothing will make sense.


Benchmarks?


As someone who wrote CSS for 20 years and who was against using Tailwind because of “principles” I must say that Tailwind is just awesome. Every minute spent trying to make sense of the structure past you or your colleagues came up with is a minute that could be spent on something more important.

Every time someone says that Tailwind sucks, it’s like hearing the old me speak.


Same here. It’s super weird take to me now. Maybe if you’re just writing plain HTML and CSS tailwind would be worse, but assuming there’s a component system you’re going to be just fine. The cascade of CSS is such a foot gun. Localized styles work great and tailwind abstracts away hardcoded values with relative ones


I prefer writing plain CSS over Tailwind

But I get component-scoped CSS (via Vue) and use custom props to abstract away hardcoded values

Tailwind isn’t the only option for those features


Such people already know it's not aliens, though.


you mean like Harvard professors claiming that a rock from interstellar space is a probe from an intelligent society?


There are Harvard professors who believe in the supernatural, I'm sure.


I'm only aware of Avi Loeb, who AFAIK is generally considered a crackpot and a grifter within academia, and his claims about Oumuamua and aliens aren't taken seriously by the mainstream.

Who are the others?


sorry, that's a typo that was autocorrected. professor should not have been pluralized


I'm not the poster you replied to but it's worth mentioning that there are, unfortunately, examples of more than a few highly-credentialed academics and scientists believing some pretty out there things. Due to such a large sample size, humans being human and tenure being for life, sometimes you're going to get outliers. Plus expertise in one discipline doesn't necessarily generalize to appropriate scientific rigor and skepticism in other domains.

While I don't understand it myself, I've seen a study showing how some scientists can compartmentalize and apply different standards of evidence between their professional life and personal beliefs. In other cases, scientists conducting rigorous lab controlled studies have been deceived by fake psychics doing simple magic tricks (and not nearly as well as a competent magician). For example, Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ at Stanford Research Institute being fooled by Uri Geller. While Puthoff and Targ were trained experimentalists having worked in laser physics, their parapsychology study designs had poor controls and lacked statistical rigor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology_research_at_SRI

As a long-time skeptic, I've learned to avoid broad appeals to authority because relying on "a scientist said..." is ineffective when a true believer can cite a credentialed scientist spouting nutty stuff. In recent years the situation around military assessments of UFO sightings has also changed dramatically. In the mid-2010s, some UFO enthusiasts already in the military managed to work their way into positions as UAP investigators, largely because "UFO Investigator" was a role no serious military careerist wanted on their record. Suddenly, what were once hundred page dry, technical assessments boiling down to "inconclusive" (which no one cared about) became artfully crafted, overly-credulous reports highlighting sensational (but poorly supported) "possibilities." This coincided with a political recalculation from some members of both parties in congress and the White House during the past two administrations to stop fighting the tiny but highly vocal UFO community as it was a no-win battle and instead basically leverage UAPs as a sideshow either for attention or distraction. And it's working.


"Nobel disease" [1] as well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease


That's quite the straw man you've constructed, which I suppose is appropriate for a Burning Man thread.


[flagged]


These are informal fallacies, so logic’s not at issue here. Though you whiffed on your accusation.


Whiffed on my accusation according to some random internet posters interpretations.

Oh no. Anyway.


I'm not the arbiter on all things Godwin's Law, but either way the analogy doesn't work.


Ok, why Brave though? There's Safari, Chromium, LibreWolf, Ladybird, and plenty of others.


1. Because it's most popular. Guaranteed support and "monkey see monkey do".

2. The adblocking is preconfigured, and non technical users trying to find the right extensions has a very bad history of unintentional malware. Ad block? Adblock plus? Ublock? Ublock origin? This is a great example of what floors a lot of technical folk who would be "why not just install ublock origin" and fail to understand the "why should I when I can just get Brave one and it works"

3. Most people don't use macs


Librewolf meets 2 and 3 (it comes with ublock origin preinstalled), but admittedly fails 1 quite badly.


Not everyone is on Mac. In fact, most people use Windows. So Safari and Ladybird are out of the question, that's two gone.


They mentioned the built-in adblock


Brave is has pre-configured as block that works on everything, also a polished sync experience.


Vivaldi's sync experience is nice as well. Top notch customization too.


Vivaldi is often behind on chromium security patch. In fact they are right now.


I started with Vivaldi. Was unstable in my experience. Constant crashes.


The problem of calling what most of us do "engineering" predates LLMs by a good 15-20 years.


I would only add one caveat to this:

Code that is organized well and operates coherently in the first place, by an LLM or not, will be easier to iterate on, by an LLM or not.


There's some of that, but more often it's developers whose arguments are a year behind the frontier models or, just as common, they're dramatically overstating their abilities.

It's an inherent tension that every discipline has to wrestle with. The most experienced developers are in the best position to evaluate where LLMs are, but those who are the loudest about their own abilities generally aren't in this camp. Humility tends to come with experience, and arrogance tends to come with inexperience.


Conversely there's a massive amount of money being thrown around biased in favor of inflating what LLMs can do compared to humans.


It's an astute observation but overstated. There are just as many programmers who view their activity as too sacred to consider using an LLM, even for relatively easy, predictable, or disposable work.


Uno reverse. What kind of limited project experience would lead anyone to think that there isn't an enormous continuum between code difficulty and organizational problems in the space of software development?


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